I used to count it as loss that I was born too late to be a suffragette. In more recent years, as a Christian, I have come to question even my current level of political activism, such as it is. What should my motivation be?
I am not one to campaign about environmental issues. (There’s way too much hot air blowing about in the green camp: and I’m not referring to the effects of “global warming”). The issues closer to my heart have always involved protecting the safety and innocence of children, and the sanctity of marriage.
There appears to be two camps in Christendom, who are at odds with each other on the responsibilities of a Christian voter. On the one hand, there is the idea that to vote for any man who is advocating anything but a completely Christian way of life, is to condone the sin, and be in part responsible. I have some sympathy with that line of thought, only in that I could not vote for a candidate who was pro-abortion, and should I be left with only such candidates to chose from, I would be left to throw my hands in the air and wear the fine for not voting.
On the other side of the coin is the passionate protester who believes the voice of the people will be heard. They believe that we should be actively voicing objections to the degeneration of morality in lawmaking policy. I’m maybe getting too many miles up to hold much hope for this camp. I’ve been involve in the government’s education review process in years past, where consultation with the community was touted as an influencing factor in the decision processes. What was the outcome of the year long review? Certainly there was nothing implemented in the new legislation that reflected the concerns of the citizens present at the forums.
On a local and state level, I am continually astounded at the boldness of the government to make moves effecting health and education contra to the will of those most concerned.
So what’s a girl to do? Does this seem a strange time to pull out the phrase, “Sola Scriptura!”? What does the Word have to say about the church (collective) and politics, and the Christian (individual) and politics?
I see no direct command to involve either the collective or the individual in matters of civil lawmaking. Example then, is the next benchmark: or it would be, if only it could be found. Did Jesus leave us any example of becoming involved in the political issues of the day? Did he campaign for rights, or against ungodly legislation, or stage political protests?
When I searched the scriptures in the hopes of gaining a greater understanding on this issue, political activism was conspicuous by it’s absence. In examples of society abandoning Godly principles, we read that God gave them over to evil desires. (Romans 1) What is the church called to do at such times? What is the antidote for a sick society? It is the gospel of Christ Jesus. This alone will change the hearts of men.
Do Christians have rights, and should we fight for them? Our obligation is not make this place comfortable for us now by petitioning governments: it is to declare the full gospel Christ. If Christ could go to the cross without a word of defence, should I, who am chief of sinners, be crying for my rights?

October 17, 2008 at 12:36 am
I am brought to mind the apostle Paul–who claimed his rights as a Roman citizen for purposes led by God. He also made it clear his high ranking as Pharisee of Pharisees and denounced that former part of himself.
Also of Esther who was placed by God in a very political situation to act on behalf of her people.
It is imperative we remain mindful of WHO we are serving with our vote -with things like abortion we have a clear mandate to use the voice we have been given to do our small part to uphold God’s law. Matters like taxes and gov programs don’t neccesarily fall under that blanket.
I, personally, see no room for a Christian in the vote-trading, back-scratching, spincentric world of politicians. An honest man would be eaten alive IF ever elected. There is no hope for real Godly change without God in the center -so we are left with nebulous choices and our strongest weapon-prayer.
Without the knowledge that GOD is in control of how everything works out we would never sleep!
October 17, 2008 at 12:48 am
Hmmm, such food for thought… I agree wholeheartedly with you (again
)
I have often questioned myself about my lack of interest in anything political. Quite frankly, it bores me to tears. I have no hope in any party, as I believe this world will run it’s course, despite the many promises of the leaders of this country. I know many would call me ignorant (amongst other things, lol), but I perceive politicians as merely the pawns on a chessboard… a lot of planned moves, clever tactics, a thirst for victory, and a hunger for the crown… more interested in their own glory, than the interests of the people they supposedly represent.
The beautifully symbolic book of Revelation reveals the true Glory that is to come. His Kingdom will be established over and above every authority that man has in place. With His Bride by His side.
The time is coming ever so swiftly…like a thief in the night…
(sounds dramatic, but it’s true! Ah, what blessed hope we have in Christ Jesus)
October 17, 2008 at 3:26 am
[...] are the Sebastopols in all their glory–just for YOU BB!! They may look like ladies in wedding dresses but they SOUND like Julia [...]
October 17, 2008 at 5:48 am
Amen and thank you.
October 17, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Dandelionmom, I accept your reference to Paul asserting his right to be tried as a Roman citizen, also his proclaiming himself to be a Pharisee, and a son of a Pharisee. Both times, though, he was addressing situations in which his personal ministry was hindered from advancing, rather than addressing a national cause, or a personal liberty that he would like included, or rescinded, in new legislation.
These are the issues I have struggled with, having been involved in the work of the Australian Christian Lobby, as well as other groups who strive to influence policy making. I have seen Christians condemn others for not taking an active involvement in the lobbying activities, yet, I feel they (non-activists) have the weight of scripture on their side.
It seems to me that we have been distracted from the Great Commission, and I wonder if perhaps it is that standing for “family values” both serves us in the here and now, and that it holds less offence than standing for the gospel?
Amanda, I can understand you having no interest in politics while feeling that we have no real influence. Yet, as we are required by law to vote, it behoves us to be aware of the position of each person on the points which may contravene God’s Word, so as not to inadvertently contribute to or support one who opposes right.
Having said that (watch carefully as I turn into a double minded person..) I also believe that God gives us the government we deserve, and in the scriptures where people’s hearts were hard toward God, and He gave them over to evil desires, well, no amount of political lobbying or careful voting would be effective in changing the moral atmosphere, now would it?
Andrea, perhaps this was not exactly what you had in mind with your query, but this concept of individual rights, and the Christian responsibility to procure them, is something I have been wrestling with for some time. I find it difficult to reconcile my desire to be an influence on the world I raise my children in, with the command to die to self. Should I be fighting for a better world now? Did not Christ rebuke the disciples for wanting an earthly kingdom?
It’s all part of the greater struggle to live “in Christ”.
October 17, 2008 at 5:35 pm
I appreciate what you are saying BB
, and I DO vote… it is just deciding which party is the lesser of the two evils, lol.
Remember the rather controversial thread on a certain homeschooling forum?? :p
October 17, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Yes, I do understand the perils of choosing between two bad options!
Do I remember the rather controversial thread on a certain homeschooling forum? Do I remember? LOL! I’m still in recovery…sharky!
October 17, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Ouch, your memory is way too good!! HaHaHa!! Dip your toes in the water, if you’re still game… lol…
nah, we’re on the same team
October 17, 2008 at 9:09 pm
LOL! The controversial section has not been the same without you, dear friend. (just imagine the theme from Jaws playing in the background while you read…
)
Seriously, it seems all a little too polite, and decorous, and…we’re missing some of the bite (sorry, couldn’t resist
) that gave the old board flavour. Perhaps it will warm up in time. However, it’s great to have you here. x
October 17, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Ah dear Mrs. BB,
Maybe if you would try a little harder at winning friends on the forum, you would have more success at influencing people!!!!
And Miss Amanda, that most certainly applies to you too!
Ooohhhh, now that was naughty
Susan
off in search of a good book to read…
October 17, 2008 at 11:22 pm
GASP! Our Susan, could you be suggesting that I am not friendly?
Well, lucky you are now too far from the cake for me to retaliate in the manner such an assertion deserves!!!
October 18, 2008 at 12:37 am
hhmmm…in the matter of influencing others to change their vote I totally agree–what they need is an INWARD influence (from the Holy Spirit) toward right thinking. As far as our own action in voting we must do our best to use the position God has put us in (as Esther did)to uphold HIS law. There is a time to mourn and wait for God and a time to be used by Him-and even a time to be forgiving of the disillusioned folk who have no real clue and act in blind, yet haughty and pompous,ignorance. Jesus forgave individuals of their sins but railed against leaders for theirs (money-changers, pharisees) (‘course they weren’t repentant-the point was he exposed them) It is our responsibility to do our part-it is WAAAY to easy to beligerently argue someone to our political view (being SO very eloquent and all )and ignore their fundamental need for real change. I am reminded of an argument I have on occasion with a certain fellow believer..who insists on chastising and correcting the bad language of those around her—I loathe the idea of making more well-behaved moral people on the road to hell–SHE says once they become acceptable for her to spend time with-then she will share the gospel! (and I obviously have painted the argument in MY direction
)
hhhmmm….why am I standing here yammering like this…did you say there was CAKE??
October 18, 2008 at 2:16 am
LOL, Mrs BB you sure know how to blog some topics that fall into the category of ‘hot potatoes’!! This one is no exception. You are not afraid to raise some serious thought-provoking issues… that is one of the things I really like about you. And you do so with tact.
And you know how this sharky enjoys a good topic that I can really sink my teeth into (besides that legendary cake!)
My lovely Miss Susan – where have you been? Your blog has been a little ‘quiet’ of late? lol… yeah,
I know I don’t go on the forum much, as I feel I have little in common with the threads of conversation there, now that I don’t homeschool anymore. When you move away from the common denominator, the pull to join in just isn’t there (for me). But I sure love the friends I’ve made along the way
Oops sorry Mrs BB… back to your ‘hot potato’, lol…
October 18, 2008 at 10:16 am
My blog? Oh thanks for reminding me of it…I’d nearly forgotten I had one! LOL I’ve been working on a new lil project which has seen me with 2 new clients, so that’s been taking my focus – homeschooling and all that other stuff is quietly pottering along in the background- I haven’t been on the forum much either. The thing that’s on my mind lately is web design but not sure that anyone reading my homeschool blog wants to hear about that.
Of course there’s my family but I’m finding hard to blog about family and what we’re up to without revealing too much about them, and I want to protect their privacy so what’s a gal to blog about??
Here’s my newest venture: http://kerugma.net/designs
October 18, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Dandelionmom, I can see the value of the illustration of Esther being in a position to save her people: I agree God uses certain people at certain times to influence government.
But what do you think (and I am not being argumentative, I genuinely have struggled with this issue for sometime and would appreciate your thoughts) on the responsibility of individual Christians to lobby for changes, or against changes to legislation?
The Cake? (yes, this one is a cake with a Capital “C”!) The ladies from the homeschooling forum who have lived down south (where it gets cold
) will use any excuse to turn the oven on. As a consequence, they create some pretty spectacular goodies. Two of those ladies made us Chocolate Cherry Ripe Mud Cake when a group of us from the board were gathering.
D E L E C T A B L E!
(one of the ladies happens to be the impudent miss who has named me as unfriendly – the cheek of her!)
Amanda, you know how often I interrupt even myself. I’m o.k. to keep the ol’ potato in alfoil while we chat
Susan, I’m off to explore your new venture…
October 18, 2008 at 11:15 pm
LOL, if I had been drinking coffee as I read your post BB, I would have spat it all over the screen!!
… the part about the ladies “using any excuse to turn the oven on” especially. You don’t really believe that do you?? HOW LONG did we have to wait to actually get a taste of this cake? We started to doubt it ever really existed, remember?! LOL…
October 19, 2008 at 1:49 am
I am muddy on the lobbying as well BB–to my cynical view it is only done really effectively by big groups who give trips and gifts and campaign contributions (not bribes) in a word-by people willing to play the political GAME–trading your vote for me on this and mine for you on that. I give definate precedence to my duties here at home in training these little hearts and minds. I hold no illusions in what I say or sign (petition-wise) changing the mind of any of my representatives–a big reason why I vote–to get right-thinking in office. example: massive bi-partisan public outcry AGAINST recent bailout-it passed-hasn’t helped either.
Once in-it is their job to govern and they stand before God responsible for what they do–I make sure to vote and occasionally write/call (rarely actually) IF they seem uncertain or willing to sway AND if it is directly touching on a law of God-(not just policy)
That be-used-where-you-are/accept-the-leaders-God-has-placed is a tough line to FIND–let alone WALK.
I LOVE discussion like this!
NOW__MOST IMPORTANTLY…exactly WHO(M) does this American need to buy off to get THAT CAKE RECIPE!!! (I only got a taste as a piece flew past my cheek)
what did you bring (since the oven is too hot??) a whacked-up pineapple? (teasing-I try ALL the recipes on your blog (even if I am not thrilled to try ANZAC biscuits yet)(and even though I have to translate measurements)-I recognize good taste!)–which again reminds me…..chocolate cherry ripe mud cake??? DROOOL
October 19, 2008 at 3:47 am
You have not reached first page for the Chocolate Cherry Ripe Mud Cake term yet, but since there are only a total of 5 entries for the term, I would say your chances are supreme!
So beyond all beliefe, I am actually on the same side of the coin concerning food (
bald eagle and all): Would you be so kind and get us that recepie, please?A question for DandilionMom, Amanda, Susan and who else has a biblical outlook:
What does/should the church have to do with “human rights”, should we as a church be celebrating 70 years “human rights”? Why? Why not?
October 19, 2008 at 6:20 am
Andrea, No, no. NOO. NOOOO! Absolutely NOT! I have to run out the door, but my short answers are NO to the human rights seventy years celebration – that’s what we have to thank for the recent abortion horror in Australia’s changed legislation.
On the recipe – sure thing ladies. Thankfully they are generous souls, and did share the recipe. As Amanda will testify, we did get the recipe looooong before we actually received a piece of that cake (but more on that later
)
I’ll be back!
October 19, 2008 at 7:19 am
This is for Dandelionmom, not for Mrs. BB or Amanda, considering how rude they just were to me! Either rude or they just lacked faith- surely they knew it would come, eventually.
However, inquiring minds do need to know exactly how many times both of you dear ladies have baked this little treatie?
Cherry Ripe Mudcake
250g butter, chopped
1 Tbs instant coffee powder
400ml can coconut milk or cream
200g dark chocolate, coarsely chopped
2 cups caster sugar
3/4 cup SR flour
1 cup P flour
1/2 cup cocoa powder
2 eggs
2 ts vanilla
2 x 85g Cherry Ripe bars
Grease & line base & sides of deep 22cm round tin.
Melt butter in a large saucepan.
Add coffee, coconut milk, chocolate & sugar.
Stir over heat until choc melts & sugar dissolves.
Cool to room temperature.
Whisk in sifted dry ingredients, then eggs & vanilla.
Stir in half of the Cherry Ripes.
Pour mixture into prepared pan.
Top with remaining Cherry Ripe.
Bake at 160C for about 1 3/4 hours.*
Stand 10 mins, then turn, top-side up, onto wire rack.
* I find that it often takes longer than the time set out in the recipe – even up to 2 1/2 hours sometimes!
*Sorry but it will require measurement conversion.
October 19, 2008 at 7:27 am
LOL! I was just posting Liz’s version as you were commenting here.
Bless you for bringing it, but don’t you remember bringing a soggy burger – a SOGGY BURGER!!!! when a group of chocolate lovin’ women had been anticipating a treat of the above magnitude? That takes some serious overcoming!
)
(yes, the scars are still healing…
October 19, 2008 at 8:00 am
Make that a sorry burger with the meat pattie MISSING!! :O
October 19, 2008 at 8:02 am
oops, should read soggy, not sorry (but it all equates to the same thing, lol)
October 19, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Amanda, it would certainly be fair to call it a “sorry” burger. Both in the context of describing it’s condition, and the sentiment that we all felt on viewing what was originally a source of great anticipation, but turned out to be….a soggy burger with no meat pattie.
Back to Andrea’s question:
Should the church celebrate human rights? In places where Christianity flourishes, human rights will inevitably be observed if we live out the greatest of all the commandments, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.”
Will that ever happen perfectly? I think not. However, legislating it doesn’t seemed to have helped in a lot of cases, either. It is illegal to physically abuse a child, but we all know that such things happen everyday. Legislation cannot protect children in this manner.
I have issues also with the direction the “rights” have taken. Take the issue of parenting. For some completely incomprehensible reason, a mother has the right to end her child’s life just before it is born, but that same woman, should she choose to keep the child, and to give her child a smack on the behind a year later, is said to have violated it’s rights to live without violence. So killing it is o.k, but smacking it is not?
Let’s take women’s right to maternity leave. Oh, I could go on for hours! Is this the stupidest piece of work that has ever been passed off as a public service? Why, _why_ would any (pure capitalist to the core of her being girl) want to hire a woman of child bearing age, who can cost thousands to train, only to have said woman decide to have a baby. The the employer is required by law to hold the employee’s job for a period of twelve months, during which time another person must be trained and paid casual rates, because although there is no guarantee that the new mother will come back to work, she may if she chooses. Of course, while she is off work having a baby, you will need to pay her maternity leave.
Why should you pay someone to have a baby? This is NOT good economic practice!!!! If you have an incredible employee and you don’t want to lose her experience and expertise, then the company should have the option to offer her whatever they feel will secure her loyalty. But to legislate in this manner is human rights gone bananas. Rotten bananas. (done with the rant now
)
So my calm answer to your question Andrea, is no.
I would be interested to hear others thoughts though.
October 19, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Yes, it would also deeply interest me what you all have to say to this.
Also, if your church were to “celebrate” this occasion, how would you react? I am torn (but this is also due to the overall question: should we leave the/this church, others may not have this issue, but they will all have issues) between “love God, hate sin” and a parallel which seems to have manifested itself in my mind: the church is the bride of Christ (and so the “church” as an entity is part of the “love God, hate sin”…), hence love the church, hate the sin. How does one wrap it’s head around this?
Is there a tipping point? A point where a believer can say: this goes too far. A point where God would naturally expect us to leave (in disgust)? Would it be naive to live life as such: God will provide a church family for me which suits my understanding of His word?
Or has He gone and done just that? Is this wacked church exactly God’s provision for me? I mean, I know (and He does too
) that I am not perfect and that I have tons to learn to ever get close to understanding God’s word… perhaps this is yet another fertile ground upon which to grow myself. Fertile ground has a lot of crap on it, you know (excuse my language on this lovely Sunday).
Off to get ready for church with me. Look forward to your thoughts on this one!
October 19, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Friends, I am posting Andrea’s question again, as it may well get lost in the raving I have done above…
A question for DandilionMom, Amanda, Susan and who else has a biblical outlook:
What does/should the church have to do with “human rights”, should we as a church be celebrating 70 years “human rights”? Why? Why not?
October 19, 2008 at 11:08 pm
I believe that ‘human rights’ has no connection to the Church. How can it? The two don’t go together at all, in my humble opinion…
When we become Christians, we are supposed to give up our ‘rights’. We are not our own anymore, but we belong to Christ. Our lives were bought at a price. I realise we all struggle with handing our lives over to Him in some degree or another, but technically, we give up our rights.
When I refer to the Church, I am thinking of the Church that follows hard after the Truth, not compromising itself with the world
Human rights instills a focus on ’self’. Christianity instills a focus on Him.
Human rights is a movement that fights against flesh and blood (so to speak). It is only able to effect change on a temporal level: the here and now.
Christianity is an army that wars against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age (Eph 6:12) – the Word being our weapon, our sword. Change in this realm, effects eternally.
(I know I am making obvious points, but I am hoping to explain why I think the two don’t mix well
)
Religious freedom is the most relevent human rights issue that would connect with the Church. However, I don’t know if, and to what extent, this truly impacts the Kingdom of God. I mean to say, true religious freedom comes by Spirit of God, and by Him alone. Countries where a Bible is forbidden, tend to produce more sincere believers who live wholly and souly for the Cause, than we do where religious freedom prevails. I have heard that in China, a single page of the Bible is treasured, studied, valued, and clung to, in the underground Church. In Australia, we can own 6 bibles, and they often just sit on a self gathering dust. Is our ‘religious freedom’ a blessing or a curse? It is NOT religious freedom that profits us, but the working of the Holy Spirit in our heart. The Truth sets us free, NOT the ‘right’ to own a bible.
Human rights is to the Church, what I believe psychology is to the Church. An oxymoron.
Well, these are just a few of my ideas. And only because you asked!! LOL
I am not aware of this celebration that you mentioned Andrea. Is your church celebrating this 70 years of Human Rights? Do you live in Australia?
October 19, 2008 at 11:32 pm
@ Amanda, yes, our church is celebrating and opening an exhibition in the church building (I can only assume as some form of outreach???) on the human rights.
No, I do not live in Australia. I live in Germany.
What would you do if your church were to take such a position as our church has?
October 20, 2008 at 8:28 am
G’day,
To me, in one sense it is a non-issue. :gasp!: It’s a moot point. The modern trend of ‘human rights’ isn’t really all that new or modern – it is old age, it just changes it’s battle cry or appearance.
What is ‘our right’? Our right is to get what we deserve – the wages of sin is death. To chase after ‘our rights’ is to follow the flesh *but* I also think that God gave man a responsibility to steward the earth. The OT has a few references to how we, the believers, are to speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute: Prov 31:8 and so on…I think that is a part of living here on earth…part of good stewardship and caring, providing, serving others. So in one sense I believe that true human rights is God ordained as part of living as a child of God but I also agree with you Amanda, in that today ‘human rights and the Church’ is an oxymoron. I find the notion of campaigning for human rights is not a wrong thing, it’s just putting the cart before the horse. It will never get you very far. The message of human rights or the results of its preaching will not lead others to salvation…but the message of The Cross does.
When Biblical worldview is rejected then it is quite logical to have a worldview that needs and accepts all different forms of human rights. I believe the Bible is THE manual for human rights and by following a biblical worldview human rights will be lived out but removing the Bible from human rights is like a cat chasing its own tail.
Modern human rights just keeps moving the goalposts (Boy I can overuse the idioms eh?). Every time some minority group makes a peep the goal posts move and there is a new ‘human right’. Basically, there are no absolutes so the sticks are moving. And where there are no absolutes, society/people will go the way of least resistance, the way that satisfies the lusts of the flesh. The difficulty is, in our time, to discern the God ordained balance.
Would I celebrate 70 years of human rights? Nope! My message isn’t to preach the good news of human rights or whatnot but to preach Christ. Would I get involved? Nope, could find other things to do. I know it’s probably not what you asked Andrea, but it’s the best this poor, web-weary gal can come up with- especially on such an intelligent blog site as this.
Regards,
Susan
October 20, 2008 at 10:17 am
Oh dear,
A friend has just written me to tell me that I could possibly come across as a little nasty in my comments here. So, I’d like to clarify a few things for any readers that may be under any false impressions.
I think BB is FANTASTIC! I think she is one of the most lovely, smart, articulate, knowledgeable yet gracious women I have ever met! If anything her blog overwhelms me a little, but I love to visit here. My previous bantering with my original comment was related to a forum we used to be on, and is all totally in jest.
For quite some time now, I had encouraged BB to start her own blog because I fully believed, and still do, that she has some intelligent, necessary and beneficial information to share, especially with the homeschooling community.
My comments regarding BB’s ‘intelligent blog’ was in no way derogatory…quite the opposite: it was a compliment. Fact is, I am web-weary and do not feel that my 2c worth of comment is worth very much, especially here on BB’s blog where people much more articulate and educated than myself are posting and commenting. That is not a barbed remark- it is the truth. If BB posted about something that I felt I had something knowledgeable or profitable to say I would spend more time in organising my thoughts to comment- but alas, I know very little about this subject.
So to any readers I offer again: BB is a lovely and refreshing lady. If you like her blog, you’d even love her more in real life!
October 20, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Thanks for your kind words Susan: I appreciate the encouragement you generously give to me, the time you take to save me from my technical disasters(!) and your input in discussions here.
October 20, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Andrea, in response to your question about staying in a church concerned with celebrating Human Rights… no, I don’t think I would have even lasted the distance. I have never faced this before, and therefore have not given it much thought before this.
We (my husband and 2 teens) moved 1600 kilometers to go to a church that lines up with our beliefs (we moved from a City, to a largish country town). We didn’t go looking for it, but had been asking God for a solution to our frustration concerning the worldiness and weakness of the churches that were all around us. We tried sooooo many, and were desperate to find a church that we believed lived and moved in the Truth.
After a few years of praying and crying out, He led us to one. So, if a Church is not on the narrow path (in our opinion), then we can’t rest with the compromise. We felt we must keep moving on, until we came to this place of ‘rest’.
I sat in some churches where they had a good handle on the Word (or so we felt at the time), but they squashed the Spirit. The result was, that after a year, we were dying spiritually. What you sit under, listen to, take in, and participate in, will reproduce in your life – good or bad. It will have an effect.
So, I don’t think I would have ever been sitting in a church for too long, that is involved with anything ‘wordly’ in nature. We had tried, but just couldn’t do it. In saying that, I don’t know the first thing about YOUR church, what they believe or where they are at. They may be great with the preaching of the Word (not the tickling your ears type)! So, it all boils down to your overall experience there, not just a one-off event that seems a little ‘off’… know what I mean??
So, that is my ’short’ answer, lol.
October 20, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Hello. It’s after 1:00am and while I SHOULD read through all of the comments before offering up a response, I’ll go on just your initial offerings.
Your observation that only ther gospel of Jesus Christ is an effective antidote for the ails of society is very accurate. Many today are trying to engage in a political-evangelism of enforcing moral standards upon society. While we should do what we can to promote governance in a positive direction, this does nothing to change a heart.
For example, we have abortion in this country taking place because people choose to have it done. We could completely outlaw this practice and while it would all but stop overnight, the condition in the hearts of those who see nothing wrong with it would remain unchanged. While I would love to see the practice stop overnight, the spiritual condition of the nation would remain unchanged. (I hope this makes sense; it’s really late and I’m exhausted.) I likewise would never vote for a pro-abortion candidate. This issue alone reveals a heart that doesn’t understand the sanctity of life. A condition that will certainly spill into other areas of decision making.
As for political involvement, I cannot speak for any other, however I choose to remain within the confines of proclaiming the gospel. We’re told that evil men will wax worse and worse, but when a person comes to Jesus all things are made new. This is where it’s really at. I think that some are called to be more involved politically, however, some of what’s done seems bizarre and suggests a misplaced faith in the very tempopral institutions of men.
This is a well thought out post. When time permits I’ll have to return and read through the other 32 comments.
Have a blerssed evening in Jesus.
timbob
October 20, 2008 at 10:21 pm
@ Amanda,
that is awesome and very encouraging that God would place you in another church which is following the Bible.
What did you do in the mean time, before the move? How long did you stay with churches which were straying from the word? Was there a time when you were church-less (no Sunday services for weeks/months) until God lead you somewhere else?
All those churches you visited, did God lead you to visit them all or was that your searching out for a believing church?
We are at a point where we have gone to all possible churches in the area. All are corrupted and following earthly goals.
To be quite honest, I am frightened to not be in a church family. Like you mentioned, this church hopping and searching for solid teaching and understanding of the One and only God (and not finding it within the church) has taken it’s toll on this weak christian heart. You said it: dying spiritually. I am pretty dry. This is great cause of stress.
We still hold on to our daily family bible reading and we are going to church in the mean time “out of tradition” or “for the children”. This is not what I envisioned a life filled with the spirit to look like! I am turning into those dead church goers on Sunday.
I realize now, just in formulating this comment, that we must leave this church. It is doing nothing for our faith, in fact, it is sucking the faith out of us.
What happens now? Pray. Listen. Read. HOLD. ON. TO. THE. FAITH.
Cry and repent.
October 20, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Andrea, I would like to share with your our experiences, which sound as yours do. I’m going to wait a day to do so, so that I have time to guard against my unruly member – a practice in discipline for myself, but I didn’t want you to think I am not hearing you. x
October 21, 2008 at 2:13 am
Andrea, I can relate wholeheartedly to your plight. We visited many churches, sometimes barely able to last the service out. Others we stayed for a month, some for a year. This searching was over a 6 year period.
Some we visited out of curiousity, some we felt ‘led’ to go to. I do believe that a few of these churches that we spent a length of time at, were ‘meant to be’ for a time and season. There were many months that we went nowhere. We fed on good meaty teaching via the internet, books, etc. The best meaty teaching was usually those men who knew what holiness was, what surrendering meant, they KNEW the Lord. And mostly, they are men who are no longer living, as they were around a long time ago. We also had the priveledge of a strong Christian woman (in her 70’s) speak such wisdom to us, and we fellowshipped with her often. She was such a sorce of strength to us in this time.
But do you know what? As much as I hated the feeling of ‘lostness’, frustration, fear, and even the confusion that comes with the ’should I be somewhere, rather than not going at all’, all served a purpose, I rejoice (now) that we went through that period. When the Lord revealed to us the place to go, we were desperate to follow after Him. We gave up all, to do so… a home, family, excellent job etc. And nearly a year later, we don’t regret it at all. We are growing, challenged, and know that we know, we are in the right place.
But that is our story, and I am not suggesting that it is what you must do. He doesn’t ‘uproot’ everybody, but it what He required of us.
I do know one thing: He hears the cry of our hungry hearts. He knows the answer to your situation. He will not leave you orphans, so to speak. Press into Him, and keep praying and asking Him what you should do. We did, and after 6 years of crying out, we were more than willing to follow His lead, wherever that led to!
So that is our story. Can’t wait to hear what BB has got to say!!
It will have lots of pearls of wisdom in there for sure!
October 21, 2008 at 11:05 pm
[...] from a conversation on a post on Politics or Religion? Published [...]
October 21, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Thanks for coming in with your thoughts, timbob, I appreciate what you have to say.
Amanda, while I didn’t have to move (to a house with a lovely verandah, aww!
) I can relate to a lot of your story. Like you, I am glad to have come through that time, and it did pare away a lot of ‘baggage’! thanks for sharing your story.
October 22, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Here I found a very fitting post this morning.
Not my Jesus
November 10, 2008 at 7:06 am
I have the same struggle BB, with being reluctant to vote and believe in Christian civil govt. I recently read the bio of William Wilberforce – if any of you have read it, what think you of it? Any who haven’t, it’s very relevant to this discussion.
Joel
November 10, 2008 at 10:22 am
Thanks for that suggestion Joel. I haven’t read the W.Wilberforce bio, but I do have one, so will hunt it out.
I have had a lot of cause to think about this issue over the last year, and to be honest, it still unsettles me. You know from previous conversations I was something of an activist. From those same conversations, I understand how Jess feels that we are so grossly failing out duty if we don’t do all we can to be an influence. I do understand where she’s coming from, but..
Still…at the same time it strikes me as counter-scripture. It’s not that I wouldn’t want an individual in office who held the same Christian values as me: I would! But my trouble comes in two varieties;
a) the church should NOT be involved in the running of the state. That was never part of the Great Command, and it leads only to corruption of the church, and compromise of its message. (just note the shame bought on the church by some “family first” members a year or two ago. If it were merely an individual up for office under his own steam, and he turns out to be a pedophile or a porn junkie, or whatever his problem was, that’s bad enough, but representing the church publicly? Ick. Then there is the watering down of the message – does the church stand for “family” or for Christ?)
b) as individual Christians, isn’t our first duty to be declaring the gospel? Won’t that bring about social change? Is political activism just “busy work”? (because it sure doesn’t seem to achieve anything!)
I’m not sure I really have my head sorted out on this one yet. :/
November 11, 2008 at 8:30 am
Well, after reading the Wilberforce bio, the observations I made are that;
a) he was used in the position that he was already in (his conversion came after his political appointment)
b) he was an individual acting separate from the church as a body (he was not representing the church as such)
c) he very boldly stood for the advancement of the gospel (in India)
Stating that doesn’t mean that I think an individual shouldn’t follow a path to politics (necessarily), but I don’t think the church as a collective should aim to put someone in government as a representative.
I also think it is a different thing to be in the position to raise issues as part of your job, than to be someone who continually petitions the person in parliament to act.
All of my tormented issues aside though, it was a very inspiring read. Thanks for the tip Joel, inspiring was maybe even an understatement!